Author Topic: Getting the Zodiac Spear from the Henne Mines Chest - Guaranteed Part I  (Read 25447 times)

zero369

  • Moppet
  • *

  • Offline Offline
    • View Profile
Re: Getting the Zodiac Spear from the Henne Mines Chest - Guaranteed
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2009, 01:18:41 PM »
i think the chest in henne mines have better chances to appear if you enter with float in that area


billygoten

  • Moppet
  • *

  • Offline Offline
    • View Profile
Re: Getting the Zodiac Spear from the Henne Mines Chest - Guaranteed
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2009, 08:04:47 PM »
Leaving/entering an area does the same thing as Curaga. Moves it forward and changes the pattern. (Or so it seems to me)

Okay, I had it wrong then. I thought it just shifted patterns.

When he hits himself he moves the RNG to the next spot.  That number gives the chest a certain chance to spawn based on what pattern you are in.

Right, I know that. Bear with me... I'm trying to communicate a question and apparently I'm doing a bad job at it.

Two hits seems to be the spawning number for GM's Z spear chest.

But there are 11 patterns and at that point, you've done absolutely nothing to determine what pattern you're in. Sooooo... my question was... why two hits? Does two hits put the RNG in a good position for a majority of those patterns? Is the chest spawn not already determined since you're within one room of it, or does it actually wait until you enter the room and then hold onto that value until the room is reset? Also, why is the number of hits different between PS2s but the patterns themselves don't seem to be that different?

So far my best number for hitting myself is 1 which spawns a chest every time enter the room with patterns 2, 8, and 10. (except a few times when I got hit in the tunnels and received a different pattern)

Going for the ZS? You can't get hit except by yourself until you enter the Phase 2 Dig. At that point, it shouldn't affect the spawn if you get hit again.

Like I said before, I just find this interesting and it seems the more I think about it, the more questions I come up with :).


Da_Cloud

  • FFTogether's Webmaster &
  • Administrator
  • Order of Ambrosia
  • *****
  • Men cry not for themselves, but for their comrades
  • Mood: Relaxed Relaxed

    Offline Offline
    • View Profile
Re: Getting the Zodiac Spear from the Henne Mines Chest - Guaranteed
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2009, 08:21:05 PM »
Well then lets try to answer these questions shall we ;D

Leaving/entering an area does the same thing as Curaga. Moves it forward and changes the pattern. (Or so it seems to me)

Okay, I had it wrong then. I thought it just shifted patterns.
To make it clear any action that has a random factor will move the RNG forward, though the amount of steps the RNG will go upwards isn't always the same. Entering a room for example will move the RNG a big time (for every single chest in the room alone the RNG will move forward).


Two hits seems to be the spawning number for GM's Z spear chest.

But there are 11 patterns and at that point, you've done absolutely nothing to determine what pattern you're in. Sooooo... my question was... why two hits? Does two hits put the RNG in a good position for a majority of those patterns? Is the chest spawn not already determined since you're within one room of it, or does it actually wait until you enter the room and then hold onto that value until the room is reset?
When entering a room the RNG determs whether the chest spawns or not. If positive the chest will spawn and remain there until you zone out of the room.

Also remember we started of from a cold start (clear RNG), from that we go to an empty room which shouldn't make the RNG move. So now we want to enter the Phase 2 Dig where the chest is, but the RNG still hasn't moved from when we started. If we now enter the room the RNG will generate numbers to determ if the chest is there. If you didn't hit yourself the RNG will likely give the chest a positive to spawn. But if we hit ourself twice before entering we have moved the RNG to a position where the chance of spawning the chest are improved.

Its true that we still don't know in which pattern we are that's why the chest doesn't have a 100% spawning change even when using this method. All we do is improve the change of spawning it by moving the RNG to a better position.


Also, why is the number of hits different between PS2s but the patterns themselves don't seem to be that different?
I haven't got a clue. All we know is that the RNG on one model can be different from the RNG on another model.

Its just that for some strange reason I can only spawn the chest by hitting myself 3 times, but for the rest all patterns seems to be exactly the same.


Mike65707

  • Moppet
  • *

  • Offline Offline
    • View Profile
Re: Getting the Zodiac Spear from the Henne Mines Chest - Guaranteed
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2009, 10:08:16 PM »
Two hits seems to be the spawning number for GM's Z spear chest.

But there are 11 patterns and at that point, you've done absolutely nothing to determine what pattern you're in. Sooooo... my question was... why two hits? Does two hits put the RNG in a good position for a majority of those patterns? Is the chest spawn not already determined since you're within one room of it, or does it actually wait until you enter the room and then hold onto that value until the room is reset? Also, why is the number of hits different between PS2s but the patterns themselves don't seem to be that different?

That's right.  You don't affect the pattern your in but you DO affect what line of the pattern your in.  I think of it like this.  Each line of the pattern (I call it line but it's more likely a number, each hit moves it once, which is why we get these patterns) has a certain chance to spawn a chest.

Example for my idea: I moved one area, hit myself once, then moved one area.  So that means it's in the 3rd spot in the randomly chosen pattern that the room gave you.  For my system I'm only guessing my chances are like this:

Pattern 1: 5%
Pattern 2: 90%
Pattern 3: 5%
Pattern 4: 5%
Pattern 5: 5%
Pattern 6: 5%
Pattern 7: 5%
Pattern 8: 90%
Pattern 9: 5%
Pattern 10: 90%
Pattern 11: 5%

So the same number that is called to tell the game you are in the "3rd spot" in the pattern references the number with the chances for each pattern.  In my experience with my PS2 these chances are finite.  If I get a chest to spawn and am in pattern 10 without being hit (read my answer to that question below ;))) then, so far, I have ALWAYS gotten a chest to spawn.

Note: I didn't use 100% and 0% in the example because I'm not positive that's how it is yet.  Maybe all the percentages add up to 100%?  Maybe they don't do this at all?  I've only done a days worth of work so far (but 10 spears to show for so far :D) so I will continuing researching my hypothesis.

So far my best number for hitting myself is 1 which spawns a chest every time enter the room with patterns 2, 8, and 10. (except a few times when I got hit in the tunnels and received a different pattern)

Going for the ZS? You can't get hit except by yourself until you enter the Phase 2 Dig. At that point, it shouldn't affect the spawn if you get hit again.

I mean I always get a chest when I have a pattern -at the chest- and haven't been hit by Abysteels, which means I have the same pattern I had when I entered the room.  When I do get hit I'm no longer in the same pattern so I get a pattern other than 2, 8, and 10 but so far I'm assuming that I was in one of those patterns as the chest spawned.  It's kinda confusing to explain but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. :P

Leaving/entering an area does the same thing as Curaga. Moves it forward and changes the pattern. (Or so it seems to me)

Okay, I had it wrong then. I thought it just shifted patterns.

I'll also retract that statement.  You are right it only shifts patterns if there are no chests in the area. (Thanks to Da_Cloud for pointing that out :P)

« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 10:42:46 PM by Mike65707 »

billygoten

  • Moppet
  • *

  • Offline Offline
    • View Profile
Re: Getting the Zodiac Spear from the Henne Mines Chest - Guaranteed
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2009, 10:54:00 PM »
Thanks for the responses, guys.

To make it clear any action that has a random factor will move the RNG forward, though the amount of steps the RNG will go upwards isn't always the same. Entering a room for example will move the RNG a big time (for every single chest in the room alone the RNG will move forward).

Ah, I see. That makes sense. Cool.

Quote
When entering a room the RNG determs whether the chest spawns or not. If positive the chest will spawn and remain there until you zone out of the room.

You mean until the zone is reset, right? Because once the chest is in a room, it's still there until you get it or reset the zone. Well, even if it's not "there" by virtue of the fact that you're not actually in the room, the game still remembers it's supposed to be there.

Quote
All we do is improve the change of spawning it by moving the RNG to a better position.

Okay, so the location two hits into multiple patterns is overall a better chance than leaving the location at position 0, ao although it might not necessarily improve the location in the RNG, it does for more patterns than it doesn't producing an overall improvement. That's what I thought when I first asked.

Quote
Its just that for some strange reason I can only spawn the chest by hitting myself 3 times, but for the rest all patterns seems to be exactly the same.

Okay. I don't know of anyone who's been doing this who has said that they have the same model as I do, but the patterns seem to be a little different for me. Not by much, but the hits in between some of the combos are often different, sometimes by only a hit or two (which FFGM mentioned) but up to 10 hits or so, although that could be a result of attacks like Leech and Gnaw moving the location by more than 1 spot, or perhaps interference by Immobilize, since I've been using it over Chronos Tears. Other gaps are the same, like the gaps in between 4-hits and 5-hits are 28 as far as I can tell.

And my chances still haven't gotten significantly better with 0, 1, 2, or 3 hits as far as I can tell, although I need more experimenting with some of them. My best chances so far are actually 0, but nothing that I can peg down as better than the "standard" 10%.

I'm also finding it quite impossible to get the DA chest in Tchita to spawn at all. I tried from all three save points in Tchita and it has spawned only once, off a soft reset that produced a pattern I thought I recognized but ended up not swapping into a good when when I used Curaga. I'm over 50 tries by now, and I don't even want it! I was helping someone else.

Quote from: Mike65707
I mean I always get a chest when I have a pattern -at the chest- and haven't been hit by Abysteels, which means I have the same pattern I had when I entered the room.

Okay, so every time you have pattern 10, which you find out once you get to the chest, and you didn't get hit by Abysteels, there is a chest there? The question I have is with the "if I haven't been hit by Abysteels" part. You can't get hit by Abysteels until you're in the room. The chest is already there or isn't there. The Abysteels can't affect it at that point, right?

Also, I understand the concept of the movement of the values in the RNG, both down the "line" and into another "line", or pattern. I have understood that as soon as FFGM posted about it. I just don't know the nature of the movement.

Quote
When I do get hit I'm no longer in the same pattern so I get a pattern other than 2, 8, and 10 but so far I'm assuming that I was in one of those patterns as the chest spawned.  It's kinda confusing to explain but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

:/ Kinda. I was under the impression that getting hit doesn't shift patterns, but shifts down patterns. Like hitting yourself. That might not be the case with Leech and maybe even Gnaw, but I'm assuming that regular attacks should just move you down the pattern, not change it into another one.


FF12GrandMaster

  • Guest
Re: Getting the Zodiac Spear from the Henne Mines Chest - Guaranteed
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2009, 11:04:25 PM »
I just want to make something clear. It has been determined (not just by me) that all the chests for an area are set with just one random number. Don't ask me how it's done with just one random number, just accept that it is. In my testing I did hitting in Cerobi after entering the area. Bmxer31000 did the hitting in his tests before entering the area and the hit numbers to our first combos always varied by just one hit each time. From that we drew the conclusion that the game uses just one number to determine the location for all chests in that particular zone.


billygoten

  • Moppet
  • *

  • Offline Offline
    • View Profile
Re: Getting the Zodiac Spear from the Henne Mines Chest - Guaranteed
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2009, 11:08:14 PM »
Oh, another question I thought of today. Don't know if it works, but it might be worth looking into.

Let's say we're in pattern 21 hits => 3 hit combo => 29 hits => 4 hit combo => 28 hits => 5 hit combo. Each hit is moving down the line in that pattern. When you land on the value right before the three hit combo, it's a value such that when you go to do your attack and the attack references that value, it throws you into a 3 hit combo. From my understanding, each hit of that combo also moves the value down once per hit, which makes sense, why wouldn't it?

I'm wondering about comboing over those values though. Has anyone checked to see if any of those values might produce a 5-hit combo? You wouldn't know it if they did because you're already in a combo - I would assume the game would ignore that. It's also not a huge likelihood and it may be difficult to do something that would have you skip the value that produces the combo so that you'd be able to check the values you normally combo through. It might even be possible that a solution to one of the two (last time I checked) patterns that don't produce anything is one of the values that you combo over. Not likely, just something I thought of.



pprincess

  • Knight of the Round
  • *******
  • Mood: Smart Smart

    Offline Offline
    • View Profile
Moderator Edit: This topic has some crucial information and some very long posts. I'd like to keep it readable, so this Part I intact at this point and start Part II for continued discussion.