Author Topic: FFXIII.......it looks like I'm gonna give this a miss unless....  (Read 17598 times)

FF12GrandMaster

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Re: FFXIII.......it looks like I'm gonna give this a miss unless....
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2010, 01:50:46 AM »
Out: Sprites         In: Anime
Out: Male Hero saves Princess    In: Tough Female Heroines who carry the story
Out: Grinding      In: Character/skill development
Out: Levels         In: Abilities
Out: Medieval themes   In: anything but
Out: Towns         In: Insta-shopping
Out: detailed quests In: hunts with amazing graphics
Out: Open Worlds  In: providing the experience for the viewer
Out: Cash grinding          In: readily available items
Out: older characters   In: teens and even younger (SO4's Lymle, anyone?)
Out: 200 hour RPGs    In: 50 hours or less (this is a cash issue, games are more expensive to make)
Out: Japanese culture   In: western culture, multiculture

Looks like my RPG days are over if that's the crap that's coming in.


pprincess

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Re: FFXIII.......it looks like I'm gonna give this a miss unless....
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2010, 01:58:38 AM »
Hard to say...I translated 12 pages of reviews on FFXIII on Japan Amazon. There was a loud collective howl from JRPG fans in Japan over the lack of towns and open exploration.

I think Square Enix is, based on interviews with their CEO's, is trying to move away from the "formula" games they are known for and are viewing their direction more as entertainment experience. FFXIII is well in line with this view, of being entertainment for a more general audience rather than for the usual JRPG player. They want new audience, not the one they count on, as you have noted above.

However, there are plenty of gaming companies picking up the slack. Where Square Enix has moved away from traditional JRPGs, other companies like Tri Ace and many others are using the JRPG formula. So, there are and will be more JRPGs, but perhaps by other companies. Makes reading gaming press worthwhile, as we search for games that are not so much entertaining as a real intellectual challenge.

This entertainment bit is definitely a phase and I can see the pendulum swinging the other way. When all you young players get a bit older, some nostalgia will be there for the traditional JRPG which may well be more in the past, but reviving the gameplay of the early JRPGs could be a real winning situation in the future soon enough.


xkeyblademasterx07

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Re: FFXIII.......it looks like I'm gonna give this a miss unless....
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2010, 04:01:08 AM »
wait, i haven't played the game yet so to what extent is there no exploration?

like no backtracking either?

p.s. sometimes i feel like SE is starting to lean to the "what gets us lots of money" philsophy instead of "lets make an amazing game" =/

don't worry GM JRPG-style games are far from being casted out, many people still enjoy them so they will continued to be made

« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 04:04:54 AM by xkeyblademasterx07 »


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Re: FFXIII.......it looks like I'm gonna give this a miss unless....
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2010, 09:11:07 AM »
Hmm, this is really turning into an interesting thread!

If you take a look at White Knight Chronicles, Star Ocean 4, The Last Remnant, Dragon Age Origins, Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, so many really recent RPG's(2008+) are still making great, JRPG formula RPG's. Even the ones that are being unique(FFXIIII) will still be popular and hold well as well, but as PP said, the pendulum will swing again and people will grow tired of it. While people say tough females have never been in games prior, they've obviously forgotten Ashe from XII, Beatrix from IX, Emma and Emmy from TLR, Celes from VI, and especially Agrias from FFT. Older characters will become popular eventually as the audience S-E is trying to capture now grows older. You can see this progression with the two generations of FF.

FF1-FF6 continued in the same fashion as FF7-FF12 did. FF7 started out with a new audience as well and kept that audience for the most part until now. Seeing as how FF9 was a force to push new players to experience the roots of 1-6, I'm nearly positive that we'll get another FF9-like game soon(probably FFXVI if they go the way they are) in which S-E will realize there's two entire generations of audience they now need to please, along with the new, third generation of FF beginning with 13. They'd need to make that game represent everything FF has meant to all fans. Can they do it? Only time, and money, can tell. If S-E keeps inhaling the money like they are, I'm not too worried that the pendulum will swing once again, and rather then eliminate the current fad, they'll provide an exquisite and smooth blend of the two.


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Re: FFXIII.......it looks like I'm gonna give this a miss unless....
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2010, 10:59:01 AM »
Seeing as how FF9 was a force to push new players to experience the roots of 1-6,
It wasn't really a force to push new players to experience the roots, but rather a game to please the older generation who has been with them since the beginning.

1 to 6 have always been in the same "style" and square changed that with FFVII. When FFVII was done square decided to create FFVIII in the new direction, but at the same time create a spinn-off for the people that have been with them since the begging. It was decided to make it a spinn-off so it wouldn't inter fear with the new direction the series where heading. Eventually it was decided to give the spinn-off a roman numeral.

The main problem what most fans are experiencing now is that Final Fantasy is currently being made by 3 main stream teams. Who all have different ideas. FFX and FFXIII where made by "team 1", FFXII was made by "team 2" and FFXI and FFXIV are made by a third team. I don't need to tell you that all these games are really different from each other.

Unfortunate for the adults under us Yasumi Matsuno, who was really good in creating games with adult themes, has left square during FFXII. For those who don't know it yet, during early development FFXII was suppose to follow the story of Captain Bash and was set place in a more darker setting. Officially he left because he had health problems, but the rumours are going that the top people in Square-Enix didn't the story evolving around Bash.


xkeyblademasterx07

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Re: FFXIII.......it looks like I'm gonna give this a miss unless....
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2010, 02:55:59 AM »
i certainly like it when games have more adult themes cause im getting tired of seeing all these teen characters

personally, im counting on Versus XIII to have adult/dark themes based on what ive seen so far. hopefully, i won't be disappointed



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Re: FFXIII.......it looks like I'm gonna give this a miss unless....
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2010, 07:02:07 PM »
i think i might be the only one who doesn't mind western culture aspects in an rpg. the concept of jrpg is something i never considered until being on the internet to talk about games, but i also noticed that as i got older, the idea of something being a J-rpg is pretty in your face. now, i'm not saying that's wrong. i mean, the companies are japanese and therefore their culture should be the prominent theme of their games. but i also think if you're going to market something as an international game, then you should think of the european and american buyers. and on top of that, think of latino buyers. i wouldn't go as far as to say it's insulting that japanese game developers don't think of their localized fans, but i can easily see someone living in Argentina thinking "where is my representation."

in short, i think that people who complain about characters like sazh or barret are in the wrong, because they're taking a hypocritical stance. i'm not saying this specifically about you PP, more so toward the the news that you think will blast SE for Sazh being insulting. how do you expect a developer who otherwise has no experience in creating a western character to be 100% accurate. i commend them for their attempt to at least try to appeal to their international fans. like everyone else said, they're are still plenty of J-specific RPG's out there, but I'm ready to accept other cultures instead of being labeled as an American who wants to be Japanese. this doesn't mean i dislike JRPG's, but why should they control the market... think, for a moment, if every RPG followed the JRPG formula. no thank you, i say.

really i'm just saying i think all the nay sayers of XIII should just be a little more open minded to a concept that breaks the mold. i doubt all the cavemen who saw the man with the wheel liked it immediately, but look where we are now.

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pprincess

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Re: FFXIII.......it looks like I'm gonna give this a miss unless....
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2010, 07:15:06 PM »
Quote
how do you expect a developer who otherwise has no experience in creating a western character to be 100% accurate.

A1X, just type "ffxiii review sazh stereotype" into Google and watch the pages come up of people with concerns. Game companies have marketing departments who subject their products to test focus groups. At least, that is what MOST companies do. I do expect that game companies will do their research and get feedback on their product. If the company DOES expect to sell their game outside of Japan, and they ARE attempting to represent a nationality that is not their own, it is even more incumbent upon the company to test their items. But then, I guess Square Enix is not the only Japanese company avoiding the testing standards lately.

Actually, I have read that Square Enix and other Japanese gaming companies are NOT interested in putting Japanese culture in their games, because they feel it would not sell. They are clearly not wanting to portray what they know, and are instead deliberately trying to portray what they don't know. While it's great of SE to try and add something to a game that is mainly about "pretty white people with problems," I think Sazh is simply token and distracting at best.

What I admired in FFXII is the use of mythology from all corners of the globe. The game is packed with  it. This is a great way to make a game appealing across the planet without offense.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 07:18:25 PM by pprincess »

A1X_Jet

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Re: FFXIII.......it looks like I'm gonna give this a miss unless....
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2010, 07:33:53 PM »
From Destructoid:
The latest issue of V-Jump has images and details on Sazh Katzroy, a two-gun wielding softie that carries a baby chocobo in his afro. No, really. Apparently he's a major character in the game, and a key player from the first stage. And not a pimp.
----
"What would Barret say?"

From GameSpot:
1. He is a stereotypical mockery of black people.
2. Is pretty much considered the idiot character no one takes seriously because he's black.
3. Has a ridiculous racist look. For some reason television in Japan with black people hasn't advanced past the 1970's.
(This goes on, but, whatever.)

The point I want to make with this is that although I don't know for sure, I can almost guarantee these reviews are written by caucasian males. Not to toot my own horn, but I know an African American male who would most likely find Sazh to be a fun character. Why? Because he IS stereotypical. It's comedy and it's well placed. When you watch a comedy show that makes fun of rich white men with perfectly combed blonde hair and a sweater vest, you laugh, because you know they're out there and you know they're funny to mock while they're at their health clubs and golf meets. The best way to accept a stereotypical mockery is to laugh at it. It occurs to me that Sazh is the representation of someone who looks at culture(specifically his own?) and laughs because he thinks of himself as unique. I love the idea.

Furthermore, I think it's the reviewers who are in the wrong. They see the joke and decided to make it wrong by pointing out its a joke. The best way to kill a joke is to point out what's funny about it. Can you honestly tell me you wouldn't find the humor in a mock up of your own personality type? I would, but that's me. However, I digress. I don't want to derail the topic by turning it into a discussion of race, culture, and how to make fun of them.

What I would like to point out is that how DO you accurately portray an alternative culture? I can't sit here and explain in accurate detail the culture of a Chinese or Finnish character. Writers are told to "Write what you know", but the best of us take the challenge of writing what we DON'T know. So in SE making XIII a pure RPG and not a JRPG is a risky step - yes - and I'm sure there were challenges, and it's still too soon to say they've succeeded, but I'm one person who hopes they have.

I'd also like to touch on the subject of 1) RPG's catering to the younger generation and 2) RPG's breaking away from length and medieval themes. The first, I'm not in agreeance with. I see there are games out there for the mature, but I'd like it if my Dragon Riding Sword Wielding Magic Casting Epic Hero was in his thirties and smoked a cigar, cursed a little bit, and had REAL life experience. Maybe it's because I'm getting older. One of the main reasons I disliked XII is how Vaan had to have EVERYTHING explained to him. In fact, all the characters seemed to pretty much be in the dark. I just don't find it believable that being naive compensates for being a hero.

The second, I'm all but shouting for joy over. In ten minutes, I can point out ten or fifteen RPG's that are set in the Dark Ages, and three that are set in the future. Just for sake of originality and being different, I'd love to see some more things set in an era with Gunblades, Flying Saucers, and buildings that practically touch space.

EMPIRE: Book One: Beginning of the End -- Go into battle determined to die, and you will survive; Go into battle hoping to live, and surely you will not.
EMPIRE: Beginning of the End
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FF12GrandMaster

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Re: FFXIII.......it looks like I'm gonna give this a miss unless....
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2010, 07:48:13 PM »
really i'm just saying i think all the nay sayers of XIII should just be a little more open minded to a concept that breaks the mold. i doubt all the cavemen who saw the man with the wheel liked it immediately, but look where we are now.

With me it's not a case of whether they are breaking the mold, it's down to the fact that they are producing something I don't want. In an RPG I like to be able to roam free and explore though obviously within game limitations. What I don't want is to be forced along in a direction that I don't want to go. I am fine if SE want to produce games like that, even call them Final Fantasy, as long as I am not expected to buy them. FFXIII sounds too restricted and very short for me to want to buy it and I am not spending a fortune on a game to play it once for only a week just because it has 'Final Fantasy' in its title. I got two and a half years out of FFXII, though that is a bit of an exception, so to ask me to put up with a half-assed game just because it has pretty graphics is expecting just a bit too much. I like games that have many things to discover and if SE are moving away from that style to shorter games with no form of exploration then I will simply stop buying their games and look towards other game producers who will cater for my taste. Now I don't know how much FFXIII is going to be priced at but it's certain that it's going to cost more than FFXII which cost me almost £50 including the Hardback Strategy Guide (around US $100 at the time). If you think I am going to pay that for a game which will last a week and just one playthrough then you can forget it, it isn't going to happen.


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Re: FFXIII.......it looks like I'm gonna give this a miss unless....
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2010, 08:00:04 PM »
I'm right there with you with games becoming shorter. But I still think you can't accurately judge a product until you test it or watch it get tested. I mean, if your only concern is about free roam and gameplay length, I'm on your side of the camp. Personally I don't care about a game moving linear or not (I actually disliked the enormousness of XII), as I'm someone who won't go back to the first place in the game unless the story or something else makes it so I have to. But if XIII truly is only a weeks worth of play because it doesn't have 6 Espers and God knows how many Marks to hunt, then I guess that's just the way it is. I never completed all of the hunts in XII anyway.

Though I have to ask, how did you put up with FF's like VI, V, VIII, and IX? They're really wasn't anything outside of the story to do with those games, least of all V and VI, and VIII and IX only had the card game. I exempt VII due to the Gold Saucer and Chocobos. But in all seriousness, FF games have never really been big on "sidequests". Nothing major anyway, not to my knowledge. XII was really the first I played where I could spend an entire other gameplay era just hunting down monsters and items... something I was not fond of. I think 200+ hours is great, but... too much is too much IMO.

EMPIRE: Book One: Beginning of the End -- Go into battle determined to die, and you will survive; Go into battle hoping to live, and surely you will not.
EMPIRE: Beginning of the End
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pprincess

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Re: FFXIII.......it looks like I'm gonna give this a miss unless....
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2010, 08:06:25 PM »
I have watched the game played live. Frankly I don't see how it is breaking any mold at all except in the graphics department. It is a tour de force of marketing to younger gens to sell soundtracks, keychains and  other collector items just like Disney.


FF12GrandMaster

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Re: FFXIII.......it looks like I'm gonna give this a miss unless....
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2010, 08:11:53 PM »
We all like different things which is why there is the saying that "One man's meat is another man's poision" and that is why software companies should produce different styles of games for those with different tastes. I will quite happily buy games that suit my taste but I will not buy something that falls short of my own personal expectations. I don't need to test FFXIII out to know that it doesn't satisfy my likes in a game nor represent value for money just as I don't need to test drive a Lada car to know it's a heap of crap.


A1X_Jet

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Re: FFXIII.......it looks like I'm gonna give this a miss unless....
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2010, 09:19:31 PM »
I guess there is no way to change the opinion of a set mind. At least now you both understand the way I feel about FFXII. I for can can at least say I want to play the game to see the way the story progresses and how the characters develop.

Anyone agree? Anyone care more about the story of a game than its gameplay?

This is not to say gameplay does not affect opinion, but is an afterthought. I know it would seem hypocritical of me to say XII had bad gameplay but a great story and then still say I disliked it, I'm not saying that. I didn't like either, same as VI.

EMPIRE: Book One: Beginning of the End -- Go into battle determined to die, and you will survive; Go into battle hoping to live, and surely you will not.
EMPIRE: Beginning of the End
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FF12GrandMaster

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Re: FFXIII.......it looks like I'm gonna give this a miss unless....
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2010, 01:06:33 AM »
The story is almost (but not quite) irrelevant to me. A game is called a game for a reason and a movie is called a movie for a reason. The last thing I want is a freakin' movie in my game. If I want a movie I'll either go to the cinema or rent a DVD. ::)